Frequently Asked Questions and Answers found in Halacha

Rabbi Akiva Moshe Silver

The Torah perspective on emotional therapies (and understanding the differences between therapist and therapist)

From time to time, the question arises about the attitude of the Tohhak to emotional treatments, which are mostly based on the wisdom of the soul based on the research of OH and people who are outside the midrash schools, and when we scrutinize the commonplace in the world, we find in it some opinions and approaches that on the one hand are contradictory but on the other hand are all correct and complement each other.

הדעה הרווחת היא, שככל שניתן להיעזר בחכמת הנפש הנחקרת והמדעית, להוסיף ערך ולשפר ולפתור בעיות, על סמך חכמתם, נקיים בעצמנו משנה ששנינו [אבות פ"ד מ"ג] אין לך אדם שאין לו שעה, וכמאחז"ל חכמה בגוים תאמין [איכ"ר ב יג], ונשתמש בטוב שבחכמתם לריפוי הנפש ולקידום האדם ובריאותו.

זאת היא הדעה הרווחת והכללית, שמי שיש לו בעיה בתחום הנפש, ילך למומחה בתחום זה, 'דכאיב ליה כאיבא ליזיל לבי אסיא' [ע"פ ב"ק מו ע"ב], ושמלבד מגבלת הכסף והזמן כשהם חסרים, הרי שללכת לטיפול הוא דבר טוב וחיובי מעיקרו, לפחות לנשים וקטנים שיש להם זמן פנוי יותר.

On the other hand, some will argue that if there is someone who is sick and problematic, then there is no choice and we can send him there, but someone who is functioning more or less as he should, and although he feels that he can do more from where he is, but still, what is the permission to send him to such places, and rather such things No good things come of it, and we should not look for anything but pep talks and moral books.

And some will argue even more, that all this mental wisdom is the destruction of Judaism and the view of the haters of the religion, and in any case no one should be sent to experts in this field, nor should they be consulted.
And I even saw someone who got very serious and exaggerated his words, and wrote that the main last test before the coming of the Messiah would be the test of psychology.

And some will expand further and say that even from the point of view of reality and physical nature, the wisdom of the research mind is nonsense and vanities that have no dawn, and what do you have with these people, go with the secretary of a certain TA or a certain kindergartner who understand the soul in its depth and breadth more than psychology and psychologists.

These are more or less the approaches heard from time to time in these matters.

And so I saw the need to put things in order, and to clarify and refine some matters, why we are obliged to accept and agree that there is truth in the theory of the soul, and on the other hand, what are the details of them that are not good or incorrect.

And because of the occupations of my righteous wife Tahi', I was exposed and got to know a little about the subject from the inside, and I learned some information in this field that is not known to some of the general public, and on the other hand, there is a lot of confusion in this field, to the point that sometimes people do not distinguish between the 'One Mind' trend and CBT therapies, and the difference between psychologists and emotional therapists, and I even once met an old man who did not differentiate between engaging in vegan products and engaging in emotional therapy, and certainly no people distinguish between Freudian analytical psychology (which gives a bad name to the general wisdom of the mind even among wise and knowledgeable people), and contemporary therapies based on all the latest research, and the hidden on this subject as in every subject today, outweighs the visible, that's why I saw the need to put in writing some things that came to my mind, and I will read it myself and anyone who finds pleasure in it.

First of all, the reality is that in every occupation there is wisdom and there is knowledge and there is experience and there is expertise, it is a very probable fact, because it is clear that a person whose field of occupation is for example such as home repairs, in most cases he will indeed know how to do it, more than someone who is not in his field of occupation that is may do so slowly and negligently, and even more so if the same repairman studied the profession for several years (and for that matter it does not matter who taught him and at what level) all the more he knows how to do it [of course on the majority and average way] more than a person whose connection to it is only amateurish only, and the same in the field of painting, for example, and the same in the field of medicine, as it is clear to anyone that he who heals according to his opinion without prior knowledge and without experience, instead of having an expert doctor who has studied the subject for several years, he is raised under the supervision of a soul, and therefore in almost every subject And especially in the field of medicine, today there are studies and tests and contemporary knowledge and experience, so that it will be possible to deal with the existing problem according to the most recent information available (and this should not be a difficulty, which in a hundred years' time all the information today may be out of date compared to the organized information that will be then, since the information that exists today is certainly essential and infinitely more useful than someone who has no information at all).

Therefore, even in the soul, there is a person who needs improvement or correction in his soul, and naturally anyone can talk to him and listen to him and give him advice, but there are people who are warm, they freed up their time and their lives to learn the things and engage in them, they usually experienced (the best in which) no less than several hundred cases they have treated, and usually there are great successes in them, so when a person reaches a situation where he really needs treatment, and he is faced with the question of whether to do the treatment for his son himself or with the secretary Haider, etc., or send him to a specialist, There is no doubt that the expert is the right person to do it.

And although in this field it is more difficult to distinguish the priority of the experts in this, since there is great discretion in the treatments, and the cases and results are not published in the various advertising channels, and also because usually the problems are not solved on the spot with a single consultation, therefore in this field it is more difficult to distinguish and recognize it.

But even in this field one must be responsible in the identity of the professional just as much as in other fields and even more so.

And you need to know that the current theory of the mind, by whatever name we call it, like the wisdom of medicine - consists of countless studies, countless articles, countless books, countless expert opinions, which came from the specific experience of many years of each of the therapists working in the field, which he actually dedicated his life and time to this field.

And anyone who has ever seen social science libraries has seen how many scientific books and studies have been written, even on one individual with a social, mental and/or therapeutic problem, and not one book, not two, but entire pages of books have been written on just one individual, and it is true that not every therapist has read the All the existing material, but on the other hand a successful therapist has studied and read a great deal, and tried a great deal, and has already succeeded in many cases, and there is no reason why we should not hire him for his services.

And of course without going into financial and convenience considerations, the issue is on the serious side, who is the ideal person to take care of mental problems, is the amateur or the professional person? The answer is unequivocal, surely the specialist is ideally more qualified to handle such things.

And from time to time I hear the unknown or so-and-so check and say that there is not really in all of 'their psychology', and I ask, does your honor believe that you understand more than the multitude of experts who each contributed their share and experience and research to the literature of the theory of mind that exists today? You can replace all the studies and there is no end to the knowledge and material in the field, and decide all the questions as correct on your own alone and arrive at a more accurate and true answer to every question and in every field of the desires of the soul, from all the experts together and without checking any studies?
And to explain more and refine things more, we will notice that there are many issues, in the field of the mind, such as how to treat a child who fails to listen in school, and how to treat a child who bullies/steals/lies/stresses/rebellious.

So the good news is that there are many studies that have been done in relation to the treatment of each problem, to check how the child reacts to each method of working in front of him, and many experts have devoted their time and experience to treating each of these things, and lecturing them and writing them, there is no justified reason not to use all the material that is available and it is Ready to handle any problem.

And so, just like in the mortgage and the capital market [and in anything where the money from the tircha fees is worth it or makes it possible], we usually hire (when necessary, of course, depending on the matter) someone who understands this to handle it, someone whose field of activity is the one who handles these things with understanding, and brings More successes and fewer mistakes, and in medicine she gave permission to the doctor to heal [Brachot S], there is no reason for us to conclude from these things and say that there is really no wisdom in all the research.

And again, it is not meant in all of this that the individual is not allowed to express his opinion on this or that matter, and it is not meant that all the theories accepted by the experts must be accepted as the Sinaitic Torah, what is being discussed is the general attitude towards the experts and their expertise as something that must be learned from and derived from, and of course anyone can add on their words and discuss their words, and we will accept the things that become clear as research develops from generation to generation.

And below it will also be explained that some of their words are based on the values of the Gentiles and have nothing to do with wisdom or science, and of course there is no need to accept all their words as Torah from Sinai and so on.

In the obituary delivered by the Rabbi Rabbi Berman Shalita for Maran HaGrij zt'al at Kollel Chazon Ish, he said that Maran z't'al was the one who introduced the concept of going to ask and consult with experts.

The problems that exist in some therapists today

I would indeed be interested in analyzing the problems that exist among some therapists today, and perhaps after we understand the problems inherent in the responsibility of some therapists, we will understand why the world of therapy and psychology in general is given a bad name in certain circles as a problematic thing, and in particular for Torah and mitzvot keepers.

The existing problems can be divided into three: methods, personalities, and approaches.

methods

The first problem of methods is a very fundamental problem, and it should be given a lot of attention, and precisely because of this there is a great deal of ignorance and lack of knowledge about it.

The therapists today do not have uniformity and equality regarding their treatment method.
On the contrary, there are many treatment methods, there are the central and institutional treatment methods, such as CBT.

And on the other hand, there are the mystical treatment methods, such as one brain (which, by the way, does not belong at all to the world of rational and institutionalized treatment, and what a shame it is for people in their innocence to alternate between treatment and treatment, and lose money and time, if only because they could have invested the money and time in the real and institutionalized treatments).

And there are theoretical treatment methods, such as Freud's analytical psychology, which was taught in many schools and academies, even though much of the material is only arbitrary theories, and today science is already slowly starting to shake it off.

And there are the renewed treatment methods, i.e. methods that private individuals invented and marketed, such as the work method (of B.
Kitty) for example.

All in all, there are a great many methods and there can be five or ten therapists in one neighborhood, who in their definition in front of the client are all 'therapists', and in practice each of them is different from the others and works with a completely different treatment method.

And this is without going into different problem areas, some therapists focus on specific problems while others focus on other specific problems.

בהנחה שכל שיטת טיפול הפועלת על היגיון (לא מיסטית) תוכל להתאים בחלק מהמקרים ולקדם בחלק מהמקרים, וכך אכן מסתבר, אם כן, הדבר הנכון וההגיוני היה, לנהוג כעין הפסוק מכל מלמדי השכלתי (תהלים קיט, צט), ואיזהו חכם הלמד מכל אדם [אבות פ"ד מ"א], ושהמטפל הבא לטפל ילמד ככל היותר שיטות טיפול הניתנות ללמוד, ולא להיצמד או להגביל עצמו לשיטת טיפול בודדת כזו או אחרת, על מנת שהטיפול יהיה תועלתי ומפיק תוצאות טובות ככל הניתן.

However, in reality it is not possible for all therapists to behave like this, first of all, because studies are very expensive today, and each year of studies can add up to many thousands, and there is no need to say much about the hassle involved in freeing up time for studies and exams.

Therefore, there will be therapists who, after receiving training and certification for treatment, will not be inclined to add additional studies, but after tedious studies, the therapist will already be interested in realizing himself and entering a profession, as far as he has a legal possibility, and will not wait to learn additional treatment methods.

Another reason can sometimes be according to the desire of the therapist to focus on a certain method to its depth and breadth in order to be more complete with a certain method over other methods, and this is by the way a welcome thing to find the thing in which he thinks to succeed and focus.

And sometimes it is also because of the tendency of the therapist's heart or his view that he believes more in a certain method of treatment to invest in a certain method, and also of course that very decisive in these questions are the academic considerations of schools which for their part do not take into account at all treatment methods that are not recognized in academic circles as is known to those who know their mindset and such .

In any case, it is the right of the public, the clientele, to know that there are several levels of therapists, and when they pay and choose a therapist to use his services and pay him, they should know to whom they are going to hand over the most precious thing to them, and to whom to pay a monthly salary.

Therefore, it is important to know when finding out about a therapist that he has devoted his time to learning a lot of material, including those who have devoted their time to learning several treatment methods in a thorough and responsible manner, and based on this to select therapists who have devoted their time to learning and acquiring knowledge in a responsible manner.

And it is important to note that it is not always precisely the one who has studied more methods that is more successful, and sometimes there will be a therapist who has studied more material and more seriously on a certain subject, it is possible that he may be more suitable for certain things, and therefore it is impossible to categorize all integrative therapists (that is, those who combine methods) in a great degree than the therapists who are not like that, but in a comprehensive way it can be said that those who have learned several treatment methods may be richer in knowledge and therapeutic solutions, and this can only be an advantage to know more methods and integrate them in the work, and not a disadvantage at all.

against four therapists

The therapists can be divided into four types, as follows.

The first type

Some therapists use an integrative approach, and it is the best treatment approach available, which means that the therapist has taken it upon himself to learn several treatment methods, and uses all of them in the treatment room according to the matter and the need, thus raising the patient from where he is to the maximum possible, regardless of this other method.

This approach is the correct and most desirable approach, because just as it is impossible to limit treatment only according to the opinion of a certain expert or only according to a certain type of advice, so it is not possible to limit it only according to teachings taught within a certain method, and if there is someone who limits it by virtue of his knowledge or occupation, then There is a therapist's limit here, and the patient should know this in advance that there is a limit to his therapist.

Of course, we do not come to generalize, and it is true that there is no escape that sometimes a situation may develop where there is an integrative therapist who is not at a high level as required of him, but in general the right direction is not to depend on one method and ignore other methods, just as in contractors who learn how to build for example, we can indeed say that we are learning Only a certain and unknown construction method, but the ideal successful builder is the one who learned several construction methods in a responsible manner, and masters them, and knows how to combine them in every structure he builds.

The second type

The second type of therapists are those who treat with one of the institutional methods, such as those who only treat CBT or only NLP, these therapists can also be excellent and can be said to be 'perfectly fine', although not at the same level as type A therapists who master many treatment methods, But of course there is no doubt that these therapists also have a place and should not underestimate what they can contribute and benefit, and as mentioned that the end of a verse is not measured only by how many treatment methods the therapist has learned, since knowledge, talent, experience, seriousness, responsibility, understanding of the soul, intuition and a few other things, may Also to finally determine the degree of effectiveness of the therapist.

The third type

The third type of therapists are therapists who treat with unknown treatment methods, and sometimes even with methods that border on mysticism such as TAT or the Alef Beit method. Learned something in the field of the mind (there are those who studied in the field of the mind and in practice treat only one method and I am not talking about them here).

In general, it is obvious that in most cases the accepted and well-known methods of treatment, which are in terms of 'a path occupied by the many', and have already been clarified a lot and made into the public domain, should be preferred, than private methods of treatment.

It should be noted that even with the private treatment methods, it is impossible to click and learn from treatment to treatment, there are excellent and nice methods, each of them for what it can be useful in its place and time, like B. Kitty's working method for example, and there are some of the private treatment methods, which are not recommended treatment methods , at least not for most problems, and the client, due to his lack of knowledge in the field, does not distinguish between one method or another, and the letters that make up the method in English or another language mean nothing to him.

Obviously, those who go for these types of treatments are people who do not know and have not inquired about treatment methods, or people who follow the method of whether it will help or not harm, since there are methods that are considered easy for the patient or short-term, or people who for all kinds of personal and local reasons and various justified considerations worked out for them go to a therapist of one kind or another.

It is important to emphasize that there is no intention here to generalize and there will certainly be certain therapists of the third type who will be of higher quality or even more successful than certain therapists of the previous types, and the intention here is only to give a general direction for checking the type of preferred therapist.

To this third type can be added those therapists who went through an accelerated course or further training with several classes to treat one problem or another, and based on this they approached treating the general public, and again I did not come to generalize in this either, and there are excellent counselors whose advice is useful regardless of their years of study , but it is important to pay attention in general and check when you go to a therapist, whether the therapist is professional and responsible for the profession or an amateur.

The bad news is that most of the time when you go to therapy, you don't know the therapist in advance from anywhere, and the examination that is done is based on the graphic that the therapist financed and according to the information he gave about himself, and this is a problem in itself, which had room to be given and expanded on separately.

the fourth Kind

There is the fourth type of therapists, and they are therapists who have not studied and dealt at all in the field of understanding the human soul, but only mesmerizing methods of therapy, such as one mind and the three dimensions, etc., and unfortunately there are people who do not distinguish between therapists, and go to the one who promises more success and how much it is a promise In the short term it is better, or for those who charge less, and do not know the difference between a therapist and a therapist, and it is important to note that there are those who believe that there are also Torah prohibitions in this type of therapy, but this is not what is discussed in this article.

Since the market is flooded with therapists, and naturally there are therapists who are not responsible, and there are therapists who treat and do not see results at best, and there are even therapists whose actions bring a bad name on the entire world of therapy as something that is not beneficial or irresponsible, therefore I considered it appropriate to divide the types of therapists and the methods of therapy, In order for the patient to know who will be his therapist.

Treatment methods

Some of the treatment methods are as follows:
Analytical psychology - theories from Freud's various theories are old-fashioned and arbitrary in Freud's opinion, belong to the academy of an older generation mainly, the method includes ideas that contradict the OT, it is possible that it can be used by the therapist as a study supplement, but you have to be careful of the thorns in it, and certainly beware of a therapist who mainly treats according to theories these

CBT - a method that advocates changing habits by developing new habits, of course the main part of the method does not claim to know the human soul or his emotional scars, but rather to forcefully change the habits, there is something in this method, and certainly it is a kosher and correct method according to Judaism and Akhmal, In contrast, it is considered the most accepted method in academic circles, on the other hand, the method cannot guarantee that the bad habits will not return, and the method cannot in some cases solve the problem from the root to the same level as other treatment methods and approaches.

NLP - a method that advocates the change of the human soul according to changes in consciousness and mental focus on all kinds of ideas, the method is correct according to the OTHC, and in contrast it has gained momentum in recent years among the general public, since this method leads to many successes in producing changes in the human soul, and the method is mainly used For training, that is, to raise the person from where he is further, or rather to solve problems.

Narrative - a method that advocates a different and healthy look at the events.

Dynamic - a method that examines and searches for the problems from the root and corrects them from the root, the method especially advocates working on the part of the patient and not on the part of the therapist, meaning that the changes in consciousness and decisions and feelings will come from the patient.

Byron Kitty's working method - a method that advocates for a person to develop good thoughts about all kinds of challenges.
I don't have enough knowledge to divide the methods into detail and depth.

The AB method - a method on the border of mysticism to solve problems based on destinies.

One mind - a mystical method to solve problems by penetrating the subconscious with the help of a link between the therapist and the patient by virtue of actions that appear to be supernatural actions.

TAT - a treatment method directly in the subconscious, combining movements and concentration, a short-term treatment method on the border of mysticism.

There are many other treatment methods, among them there are some methods that apart from having a name or a pair of letters in English, I know nothing about them, and of course we will not go into detail about them all within the scope of this article.

So in conclusion, there are two additional principles that we learned in this article, which should be checked when looking for a therapist, first of all, it is useful to know if the therapist has broad knowledge and control in the field of the mind, methods, knowledge, books, studies, experience, etc., or if he does not have enough such knowledge .
And included in this clarification is also finding out whether he is subject and limited to only one treatment method or if he has a hand in all the existing and known methods.

And the second principle is to check whether the therapist has a hand in the known and accepted methods that are a hidden path, and in most cases this will be what you need, even if you are not sufficiently in control of it, or the therapist only treats with unknown methods, or alternatively he has no understanding and knowledge in the field of the mind at all And he uses only deviant and ideological methods.

I do not mean that anyone who has not reached the highest level and meets the most recommended criteria in this article does not have the right to be a therapist, but that the patient who is interested in higher level therapy should check it out.

personalities

The second problematic part in the field of the theory of mind that we mentioned at the beginning of the article is the topic "personalities", i.e. who is the therapist and what is his lifestyle.

Since the readers of this article aspire to have harmony and that is their whole purpose in their world, this is also the case when they go to a therapist, because the purpose and reason for the treatment is actually that at the moment there is something that hinders the work of God, and the doctor is needed to solve it, and advance the person in the work of God every One in the place where he is and in the problems that he has to solve.
The doctor in this case is the therapist.

But what if the doctor is as far from God's work as east is from west?
It's no secret that the majority of therapists in Israel and around the world are not ultra-orthodox, and their treatment may take them away from God's work in the end, and how sad it is to see ultra-Orthodox people who assume that they are religious therapists and go to secular therapists for treatment, and do not understand that the first and second part of the treatment is Go to the one who directs you to what you want to be.

וגם מתוך המטפלים החרדים ישנם שאמנם הם חרדים, אבל הם לא מה שאנחנו מחפשים להיות, כגון תלמידי מכללות (שנאסרו על ידי כל גדולי ישראל) ומחזיקי טלפון חכם, ולא מקפידים על קלה כבחמורה ברמה של אברכי כולל, ותחשוב לעצמך שבעצם אדם זה הולך להיות המורה דרך הערכי של הבן שלך או שלך בעצמך.

An emotional therapist is not like a dermatologist, he is supposed to give you attitudes, opinions, and value ideas, and is supposed to change your mind, can you go to therapy that will eventually lead you to the opposite?
(And in the framed article: an act (brought in the therapist's own book) that happened to a gentile person who had something bad happen to his family, and sent the person responsible for the act to be treated by a gentile therapist, and he authorized the perpetrator to continue on his path according to the therapist's worldview, and contrary to the parents' wishes and contrary to the purpose for which they were hired same, and this act is only one of the acts that came to my desk, and what was answered with words from the other side that were implied during the treatment, in which they do not at all refrain from voicing their opinion and values).

This causes great opposition to the world of therapy, and of course when the issue is whether to go to a secular therapist, etc., often the overseer or rabbi in a yeshiva can certainly promote the work of God more than such and such experts, even if they can calm the mind but bring it back by withdrawing from the understanding The spiritual which is the main meaning of the goal of mental health and of all life.

Therefore, it is important to note that when we discuss the world of therapy, we are not discussing here people who are lukewarm in their fear and certainly not therapists who are not Torah-observant (there is no blanket instruction here, and in special cases such as soul control, etc., a wise question must be asked), the discussion is only about female therapists Avrachs who have studied the material on the purity of the sanctuary and are women of the Yarash army for everything, as well as men, should only be courted by avrach therapists who emphasize cod as serious.

attitudes

The third detail I commented on at the beginning of the article is the subject of 'attitudes', that is, the fact that in the psychology of the nations there are attitudes that go against the pure teachings of God, as impure attitudes or that give concessions and rest in a different and different way to the duties of human beings.

It is also known even about therapists called ultra-Orthodox who have overcome various obstacles due to the exposure of these therapists over the years to a lot of material based on all kinds of gentile approaches, on various topics that there is no place to elaborate on here, and this is something that can be understood after a therapist has been exposed to the material for hours upon hours A person, especially if he does not study the Torah Tavlin against this, naturally, various snakes and scorpions may be woven into his head, which he may instill in an audience of listeners, and cause them harm.

וחשוב לשים לב שההשקפות הגויות אין להם קשר לחלק ה"חכמה" של הפסיכולוגיה, וכל אחד כשהוא בא לשפוט את דרך החיים על פי שכלו הוא מתחיל מנקודת ההנחה ששם הוא נמצא, ומכיון והספרים בתחום נכתבו בד"כ על ידי גויים, הלכך הדברים מתבססים במקרים רבים על ערכים קלוקלים ומקולקלים, וצריך אחריות רבה לנפות ולסנן את החומר ולדעת מה להוציא משם, בבחינת רימון מצא תוכו אכל קליפתו זרק [ע"פ חגיגה טו ע"ב].

And this is something that can indeed be said against psychology itself, which is a wisdom that carries snakes and scorpions in its vicinity, starting with Freud's forgiving attitude towards all human duties and towards his dark desires, and starting with the mixture of all the attitudes and treatment of the Gentiles that goes hand in hand with the studies of psychology.

And in this you can also understand the attitude of not giving any shoulder to the scientific theory of the mind, since it includes many thorns and thorn.
Therefore, there is a need for accurate criticism and screening of everything that is studied in psychology, starting with the issue of forgiveness for all kinds of situations that are not according to the Torah, and ending with the impure methods of the OT in all kinds of topics that are rooted in the books of the Gentiles and are not missed in the books of psychology.

Without going into the issue of whether there are partial solutions to this problem, I will just point out that there are therapists who really did not study in colleges but only in places where these things about the purity of the Holy Spirit are taught there.

It should also be noted that there are therapists who were in the past among our lost brothers, and studied the things in their institutions in a broad and thorough way, and then returned to their quarry, and in this way, their souls are somewhat inoculated against the negative things that exist in psychology.

In conclusion

There is opposition among some members of the community to psychology and therapists, on the other hand, many will say that the theory of the soul is irreplaceable and that it cannot be avoided when necessary to use it and learn from it, and in fact, when the need arises, one should pay attention and be careful of three things:
A. It is possible to find someone who treats with fair methods instead of a therapist who has gone through a crash course and treats with a casual method.

B. One should be careful not to hire a therapist whose values contradict the entire purpose of the therapy.

C. The theory of psychology includes inappropriate content, so it must be checked that the therapist has studied and knows not to use the inappropriate parts of psychology.

*
This article was written due to my commitment to the field of emotional therapies, in light of my wife Tahi's occupation and work, and it mainly aims to clarify the practical and practical side of things.

For practical advice on approaches and methods of treatment, you can contact my wife at 0527155401 (her content line 08-6671681)

מק"ט התשובה הוא: 6989 והקישור הישיר של התשובה הוא: shchiche.com/6989

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דירוג ממוצע 5 / 5. ספירת קולות: 1

אין הצבעות עד כה! היה הראשון לדרג את הפוסט הזה.

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